mm -- "it all ends once"

Not sure if this has been covered yet, but with the millions of sites dedicated to lost hype... who knows. I like how everything before the end is progress. This makes me think that the loop is the progress and finding a way out may be the ending referenced in that conversation. Maybe the ending isnt the ending of events but the ending of existence as we know it. The valenzetti equation may have been a working solution to ensure the loop is carried out. The only way to not reach the end is to start over continuously. If the rise and fall of the world can rest on the shoulders of the island then this would be the focal point of all rehashing of events. Im not too sure that killing jacob is part of the loophole that our mystery man was referring to. I know the statements came back to back, but something tells me that the murder of jacob could just be his hearts desire. Being limited to only seventeen episodes I am beginning to think that maybe the feud between lockes and shephards could date back to the blackrock. (as a side note i dont think the ship in s5 finally is the black rock since it was visible from the island by both men and the blackrock we were introduced to is totally landlocked) I have no evidence to support it but I have a hunch that jacob is a shephard maybe christians dad, which would make MM the father of John Locke. Locke Sr. if you will.
This goes back to science vs faith which at a heredity standpoint would still transfer down the generations since science could stand for progress by means of testing hypothesis and the inevitable end could be an allusion to the biblical revalations. I know this works in reverse just as easily since locke sr could just have faith that he would kill jacob and jacob scientifically calculating who to bring to the island and how. Heck maybe i have the names backwards, just transpose the names and keep the characters the same... nothing really changes. Because even with these constants and variables... in the end what happened happened.

Sol, I also don't think that the ship in the finale is the black rock. I think that the scene where mm and Jacob are talking is much earlier than the black rock. Just a hunch. I also agree that at the end of the day, WWH. Killing Jacob was all a part of the plan. If Jacob was scared, he would not have left the decision up to Ben. He would have manipulated Ben to not kill him. It appears that Jacob was goading Ben into killing him "what about you?". Ben was never the chosen one.

I read another post earlier that said that the only time we see Alpert different from how he looks now is when he sees Ben in the jungle. Is this a mistake by the writers? Or was that intentional? Alpert looked the same in the fifties as he does in 2008. So why did he look so radically different when he met Ben as a boy? Could it be that the mystery man was taking on the form of Alpert at that time also? I have to believe that it fits into the story somewhere. If it is the real Alpert, then why does he look like that at that moment? I am interested in finding out!

Oh, and BTW, everyone is interested in pitting science against faith. I am not so sure that they have to be separate. A lot of people have faith in science, and a belief in God or a higher power does not negate the value of "good" science. Science is just humans trying to figure out what God did and how He did it, isn't it? It did not start out trying to prove there is not a God. To me that is another religion!

Progress is defined as:
1. a forward or onward movement
2. gradual betterment

A loop would seem to contradict those but with LOST....you never know. MM says "IT" always ends that way, when referring to the fighting, corruction etc that happens when the. people are brought by Jacob. MM seems to think the challenge between he and Jacob (can people NOT be that way) is a game that is repeated each time but Jacob views it as an ongoing game that ends once. I think that once is either Jacob succeeds and the Valenzetti equation (which predicts the end of man) is changed and mankind survives, or time runs out on man and they do self destruct.

So, "the rest is progress" can mean either of the above, in Jacob's view, I think.

I still believe Jacob has his own loophole/plan an dhas correctly read MM's strategy/plan from long ago. I have posted this in other threads but who really killed Jacob? Ben stabbed him but he was still alive - then MM kicked him into the fire. To me that would be the cause of a death. So, MM really did kill Jacob and unknowinglky broke the rule. Funny how MM as Locke said that to Ben first - "I am going to kill Jacob", and he actually did. Now what happens with the rule being broken?

Carhaytam - Agree 100% with your faith and science comment and I believe that is relevant.

I don't put much stock into Damon and Carltons audio podcast but they said something that made me wonder.

Jacob was kicked into the fire by Locke (mm). D and C said in their podcast before the finale that maybe we would see Jacob as a 70 foot fire monster. I believe that is how they said it. Anyway, they referenced fire. Jacob had the same fire going in the temple when they first showed him as at the end of the finale. Perhaps Jacob is related to fire? Perhaps by Locke (mm) kicking him into the fire, instead of destroying him, it reenergized and healed him? I know its a stretch, but we are talking about superhuman beings.

Why would mm do that? Because "they're here". MM wants to destroy Jacob but can't as long as his own existence is in jeopardy. Some food for thought? Or rotten grapes?

Also at the end of the podcast, they went down a list of who was good, bad, or question mark. When they got to Jacob, Carlton said, with emphasis, good.

carhaytam... lostorconfused... glad to hear from both of you.
carhaytam - glad someone agrees on the blackrock vs beige barge. read somewhere how richard building the ship in a bottle was foreshadowing of the blackrock, but i think it foreshadows the transparent walls surrounding the island. Something moveable inside something stationary (ship) or the opposite (island). The fire and smoke monsters huh? makes sense. cant have smoke without fire as the saying goes. Would also explain how he survives when it seems obvious that death is still an option for these 'superbeings' in their feud.
lostorconfused - i like the progress definitions. this gradual movement forward would lead to an end of somesort. What if the VE has been used successfully to increase or decrease the time left until the inevitable end... what if they kept changing things but it was never for the better and the time left kept shrinking until it created a unique energy that resides at the 'starting' point ie island. Say 108 minutes or so. This constant restart would be progress since the end is so close we can see it and can therefore have the proper knowledge to try and change it again. If it works one way turning the quickening inside out until it begins to grow again... this is still a loop, but with variables one can never be 100% sure.
The unintentional kicking into the fire could very well be the foreseen scapegoat for jacob to survive his own demise.
Thanks all.

Soli - good to see you here. You make great points. The idea of a set amount of time is referenced often as important. You bring up that 108 minute button push, there was a certain amount of time that Ben had (per Eloise H.) to get everyone back to the Island, the Valenzetti equation seems to predict a certain amount of time left for man, I am sure there are more.

What does it mean? A guess - if you do the "right" things, in time, things will go well. Otherwise, it is bad. Continue to push the button every 108 minutes and things are OK, don't and trouble seemed to start. Get everyone back to the island "in time" otherwise God help us all, alter one of the inputs to the Valenzetti (which, btw is what I think Jacob is trying to do with the whole island game he and MM are playing) and man lives, otherwise we are doomed in a certain amount of time.

Also like the idea about the ship in a bottle representing the island within walls. I think it needs to be a controlled environemnt to play the game or run the experiment/test/challenge, whatever sounds better.

lostorconfused - im not sure how much control you can have in an experiment contained area when you bring in 'variables' from the outside. Jacob seemed to know them and their importance to his plans... it makese sense that jacob would even see his own demise sine at this point there is nothing outside his prescience that we know of. Maybe he needed the losties to counter mm plans. The white flash at the end of the finale intrigues me. Waiting to see the opening and/or closing of s6 premiere for a continuation. if there is no more white screen as of that episode i will be wrong as i believe this alteration in our perception to mean something. I know the show centers around our losties but i hope they dedicate at least a third of the time left to talk about hanso, abadon, chang, walt, and of course jacob & mm. These to me are the missing peices outside the lostie circle that could explain quite a bit. Since faraday is dead who operated changs camera, wy was walt so special only to be removed (besides his aging conflicting with the story line i mean c'mon theres time travel, should be able to work it in), what are the rules to jacob and mm and are the rules put in place between ben and widmore comparable? So many questions, so much time to wait for answers.

Did anyone notice that the fire in Jacob's "home" was in reverse? May have been just for effect, but maybe not...

really... hmm. what would be the significance of that? Maybe the fire was dying out, could be allusion to jacob getting killed (hope i am wrong on this). Do you have any theories sniphneris to go with that moustache?

Lots... I was merely commenting on the fire-monster thing... Dont hate!

not hating... just some good ole fashioned ribbing.